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Post by arnaudb on Jan 3, 2010 13:38:12 GMT -5
Update of H&E Rising on hiveworkshop, here is the changelog :
V1.00 -> V1.01
*New preview and loading Image ! (All thanks to Illidan_Hunter)
*When houses upgrades, citizens are now * 2 to attain the maximum possible, assuming the player has full pop before aging. *Show Quest now ping Pack Resource & Rare Resource. *Attempted to fix fire trouble again. *Happiness bonus is higher for citizens increasement *Bonus for ResourcePack & RareResource changed, strongly lowered for heroes. (->RareR) *Command -vf can be used to fix gamespeed to VeryFast, can't be canceled (very useful for solo game) *TradePoints are now updated when"Activate Bonus" from Pack is used on heroes. *Rare Resource should normally give Tradepoint now, also exp gained is show. *Rare Resource periodic bonus is now of 4 second instead of 5 (= bonus come more often) *Pack Resource have been given a Divine Shield to avoid fast death by Spamming Creeps. *"Abord Research" Don't remove researchs anymore on tech page. *Research Movement give now +2% movespeed plus the original +5 movespeed by level.
-Profile Balancing- *Airplane profile : >Attack speed Bonus (AS bonus) decreased from 150% to 70% >Life Bonus is Still 100%
*Tank Profile : >Attack Speed bonus lowered from 100% to 50% >Life Bonus increased from 75% to 100% >Give a special and free upgrade in damage and armor
*Infantry Profile : >Attack Speed lowered from 50% to 35% >Life Bonus is still 50% >Bonus regeneration increased from 0.50 to 0.75 >Added a movement bonus of 10%
*Defence Profile : >Attack Speed bonus lowered from 50% to 40% >Life Bonus is still 50% >Give a special and free upgrade in damage and armor
*Resource profile stay unaffected from now.
*To counter profile reduction, all tech (excluding Destruction) give now +15% attack speed instead of +10% per level.
Since I feel like I'm mass posting (already triple-post and twice edit...) I'd appreciate review, comments or anything (not flaming ofc). Also comments increase my motivation for update so... your choice my friends.
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Post by FinalLegacy on Jan 3, 2010 13:45:47 GMT -5
I'd say infantery might be too weak now...
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Post by arnaudb on Jan 3, 2010 13:56:42 GMT -5
I suppose you didn't read the last part Basic AS bonus of infantry was 50% but with the changes, you've 35% AS + 150% from tech instead of +100%. So in old version you had a max attack speed of 150% and now it's 185%. Also they got higher regen and bonus movement speed. So how the heck could infantry be weaker
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Post by FinalLegacy on Jan 4, 2010 0:16:23 GMT -5
Not infantery in general, but the profile seems weaker than the others as they all gained a boost (which is a very good idea!), but the infantery boost seems less useful.
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Post by arnaudb on Feb 12, 2010 7:53:39 GMT -5
Just in case some people don't know, there is a update there : www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/maps-564/heroes-empires-rising-1-2b-154442/?prev=d%3Dlist%26r%3D20%26t%3D55And there changelog for 1.2b (the 1.2 changelog is quite correct and his on hiveworkshop anyway). v1.2->v1.2b Heroes : +General : *Due to a weird bug, show spots does not show anymore camps... (yeah wth). *Rare Resource Bonus have again been nerfed. +Empire : *Units balance : >"Ballista" (anti-air tower) attack faster >"Knight" have been slightly buffed and does not need the "Tank Tech" anymore >"Bomber Bird" and "Improved Bomber Bird" attack speed increased from 3.70 and 3.65 to 2.70 and 2.65 *"WoodCutters's House" has been reworked : >Have now the ability to repair building and vehicles in 500 around them. >Stats and cost increased to adapt to the new utility. +Heroes : *Building of Builder Heroes and Upgrade Items in forge are now functionnal with new stacking system. >Library and Temple still dont take the new system in account (I have enough of copy-paste for today...) *Item Stacking system fixed, item now stack correctly. >Correct value for selling multi material >Added a new model for stone. (credit to Ergius) >Changed the model and size of some items. >Notes : -Material items dropped are bonus, thus you can take them even with full inventory. -The main reason for model change is because the items did not disappear after being destroyed/taken. -If a bug occur while selling something that is not a material tell me please (ie : if you get 0 tradepoints) I'd gladly appreciate ideas or things to add, even in empire. As from today on I have a 15 days vacation (even if I have some things to do.) Well see you soon.
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Post by arnaudb on Feb 16, 2010 12:26:14 GMT -5
*Searching Spellmakers !*
That's, the map keep progressing as some may have seen on hiveworkshop. My biggest trouble however at the moment are the spells of heroes, in my opinion they seriously need... an update...
I dunno for you, but when I think of Spells in H&E, the only that come to my mind are the Nova of Ranger and the crazy inferno of the Lich.
I am, which shouldn't be a surprise, more a system/empire maker than a spell-maker or terrainer. Thus I need people who has skills or at least ideas about spells to add to each class : Warrior, Ranger, Cleric, Monk, Wizard, Necromancer, Trader... (with the possibility of adding news class)
You can either propose your help or just ideas of spells for a class. Of course proposing nothing won't help.
so once again :
*Searching Spellmakers !*
See you later.
Edit : I forgot to say it, but spell can be either simple or triggered.
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Asakari
Skirmisher
Schwartzvald...
Posts: 50
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Post by Asakari on Feb 21, 2010 0:23:52 GMT -5
The housing population growth is very messed up, I can't have 50% working class like I used to, and this to me is a very big deal for me. 10% is the max you can get anything up with ALL growth supporting buildings.
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Post by Sleaker on Feb 21, 2010 4:36:15 GMT -5
I'm not sure if these things are able to be modified in your version or if it would require completely rebuilding the game. But the map suffers from a few fatal flaws:
1) The time to play a full game is well over 2+ hours for an Empire, and for Heroes (depending on difficulty) it can be double or triple that to be able to level high enough to take out the boss.
2) Hero power vs Empire power. Empires quickly out-power heroes, especially in late game. The only hero that comes close to matching it is the General. In addition, the only heroes I really ever see getting played are the Mage, and the Necromancer. Sometimes a person plays a trader or an archer. But I never see anyone play any of the other heroes.
3) Map size is too big. Spawns are sprawled out that it takes too long to move from one section of the map to another.
4) Map features uninteresting. The map feels like one giant level area. If you look at any other RPG or custom game map they have nice hills, and other areas that make things interesting.
Major Flaw since patches:
The number of citizens you get at each tech has dropped, this means that it takes significantly longer to tech up, while you still gain power more quickly than heroes, generally slowing the game down is a HORRIBLE idea when the map already plays way too slow.
Solutions:
1) The game time needs to be reduced to around 40 minutes. This means a massive rebalance needs to happen.
2) Rebalance heroes, and how quickly they level.
3&4) Consolidate the map, make it less sprawling and more interesting where there is terrain. Also redesign base areas so there are more good spots. Currently there are 3-4 very nice spots that are easily defended, the other ones require 3-4 choke points.
BugS: Power bug. if you never build a power plant all your building still work properly without power.
Workers Bug: Can't put more than 20% as working without making it almost impossible to gain population.
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Post by arnaudb on Feb 21, 2010 11:20:05 GMT -5
This is gonna be a long text, be warned. The housing population growth is very messed up, I can't have 50% working class like I used to, and this to me is a very big deal for me. 10% is the max you can get anything up with ALL growth supporting buildings. @ : I know there is a bug about rations in v1.4a, already fixed in the unreleased version, but personally I easily have 50% and even 55% of working people with the 6 aura buildings plus the rules of "Rations = 2*Tax + 1"... Precise which version you played please... I'm not sure if these things are able to be modified in your version or if it would require completely rebuilding the game. But the map suffers from a few fatal flaws: 1) The time to play a full game is well over 2+ hours for an Empire, and for Heroes (depending on difficulty) it can be double or triple that to be able to level high enough to take out the boss. 2) Hero power vs Empire power. Empires quickly out-power heroes, especially in late game. The only hero that comes close to matching it is the General. In addition, the only heroes I really ever see getting played are the Mage, and the Necromancer. Sometimes a person plays a trader or an archer. But I never see anyone play any of the other heroes. 3) Map size is too big. Spawns are sprawled out that it takes too long to move from one section of the map to another. 4) Map features uninteresting. The map feels like one giant level area. If you look at any other RPG or custom game map they have nice hills, and other areas that make things interesting. Major Flaw since patches: The number of citizens you get at each tech has dropped, this means that it takes significantly longer to tech up, while you still gain power more quickly than heroes, generally slowing the game down is a HORRIBLE idea when the map already plays way too slow. Solutions: 1) The game time needs to be reduced to around 40 minutes. This means a massive rebalance needs to happen. 2) Rebalance heroes, and how quickly they level. 3&4) Consolidate the map, make it less sprawling and more interesting where there is terrain. Also redesign base areas so there are more good spots. Currently there are 3-4 very nice spots that are easily defended, the other ones require 3-4 choke points. BugS: Power bug. if you never build a power plant all your building still work properly without power. Workers Bug: Can't put more than 20% as working without making it almost impossible to gain population. @: 1) First of all, H&E is a LONG game as it's a no save/load RPG map... 2 hours is correct but the best players (me included) beat the map in GOD PLAY in 1h30-40 in general, my personal record being 1h32 in 7.3 and 1h18 in Rising. ->Making the game lenth of 40 min is ridiculous and goes against H&E whole idea... You just CAN'T beat Kalendren in 40 min or in general, attain future in that time. 2) also answer the 1 about heroes, first of all, exp for heroes have been almost TRIPLED since 7.3 from mobs kills. About their powers, You obliviously didn't read my last message. I am currently searching for Spellmaker, which mean that I am not content with heroes. It has been a long know fact that unhired heroes are completely doomed by empire, I need ideas for spells, not confirmation ! 3) Map being too big... that truly made me doubt about your skills in H&E. For empire they can use zeppelin and increase movement speed, making side-bases is also a very efficient way. Have 5 empires that aren't all allied and the map will suddenly look like a lot, lot, lot smaller... The teleport system for heroes isn't here for nothing, you can teleport to other heroes, empire which can create small place where you can teleport safely. If you're alone as a builder hero then you can make campfire to teleport. Doing such things make the travels a lot easier. Obliviously if you play alone in freelance or general (which you can use units to teleport) then the map will seem awfully big. ->Lastly about that, a teleport system have been running my mind for a lot of time, but with the lack of demand about it, it hasn't been added yet. 4)Yeah, others RPG have better terrain (some at least)... But this is also a STR... I am the only person working on Rising and remaking the terrain is FAR from my priority, for the simple reason that it work very well for empire and still don't look that bad. I recommend you to make a turn watching the old minimap of previous version before 7.3, you might find it very... interesting. (If you've a terrainer willing to work on H&E Rising I'll of course gladly accept it.) About Major Flaws since patch... 1)As I explained before, a H&E game of 40 minutes is totally against the idea of a Heroes and Empires, go play Dota if you wanna short game... I don't think anyone playing empire or heroes-builder will want to have such short game considering the amount of effort you need to build everything. 2) Rebalance heroes ? Good idea, present my ideas or spellsmaker... And as said, the exp for heroes as already dramatically increased and has ever more been since v1.4a. 3&4: your solutions are already said when you point it out, the terrain had been debated on Hiveworkshop too, DrSuperGood for instance aggred with the fact that it was better like it was because it actually was good for both Heroes and Empires. Bugs : *As said before, power have been removed because it caused too much fatal error (at least in multiplayer with 2/3+ empires.) *Worker bug : As said, I manage to have 50-55% of people working so I really don't see what is the problem... If need be I'll upload a replay of a successful Undefeatable or God Play game once I release next version. Still, you've my thanks for giving your thoughts about the map, that comportment is too rare.
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Post by Sleaker on Feb 22, 2010 2:08:15 GMT -5
I'm not saying the map is bad, I'm not trying to attack anyone. I'm just voicing my opinions on how to make the map better you don't have to take them.
Let me re-iterate.
Game Design Assumptions:
Assumption: There will always be an Empire and a Hero.
Results: When there is not an empire or not a hero the game chokes. It becomes marginally unplayable, unless you already have a very good grasp on how to play an empire. Try getting 2-3 people that have only played Empire once or twice all play as empire.
Assumption Larger maps are more fun because you have more space.
Result: In making the map so large, and having so much blocking terrain, the map designer had to create a mechanic that allowed for quicker travel. The problem is that this is an attempt to circumvent a complete flaw. In addition, if there is no empire around the whole problem becomes compounded. Suggestion: If the map size is not alterable, or you don't want to adjust it then you can try a few things: Add teleporters, or a scroll that teleports to one of the towns, or even a hero ability. Map size is really only an issue for heroes, especially when they aren't allied or when they are playing solo. When was the last time you played through as a solo hero? Was it any fun? How long did it take you?
Assumption:
Length of game does not matter.
Result: Many players are turned away because the game is simply too slow and drags on. Honestly the game ends up being boring after multiple plays. Play time directly affects your audience and how long they will continue to play the map, and is one of the most important aspects of design. Suggestion: Seriously ask these questions: Would the game be more fun if it took less time to play? Would more people play this game if it didn't take so long to play through?
Alternative ways to spice things up for heroes: Add mini-bosses that drop items. Change the number of monsters that spawn, or randomize it. Get more varied spawns. Make the spawns more difficult as the game progresses, or at least more quickly.
In a game that lasts this long I almost expect to have some form of reward system, a simple save code that gives me a minor bonus when I come back. I'm not sure how it would look, but I remember something similar for Night of the Living Dead, it wasn't completely game breaking, but it kept people coming back because they felt like they were advancing. Other than perfecting an Empire build strategy, this map has very little replayability. Every game is nearly identical. If that's what you want, then ok.
Just remembered one thing: Resource Packs: I love this new idea. THe only thing is that they don't scale into the late game for empires very well. 1500 gold and 4k lumber in the early game is awesome. But then when I hit future age I got one and it gave me about 4-5k gold. 1500 gold in the early game is a whole army, or 1-2 full upgrades. Whereas the 5k gold late game gave me maybe 2 ok units, or 1/3rd a super unit. Idea: Would there be a way to let the resource packs give you a tech upgrade? that might be cool.
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Post by arnaudb on Feb 22, 2010 8:04:39 GMT -5
I don't really attack you, my words may seem harsh perhaps because I am not a native english. well to the point (answer are in yellow) Good read. I'm not saying the map is bad, I'm not trying to attack anyone. I'm just voicing my opinions on how to make the map better you don't have to take them. Let me re-iterate. Game Design Assumptions: Assumption: There will always be an Empire and a Hero. Results: When there is not an empire or not a hero the game chokes. It becomes marginally unplayable, unless you already have a very good grasp on how to play an empire. Try getting 2-3 people that have only played Empire once or twice all play as empire. @i suppose you meant when there is only heroes or empire, not sure from your choice of words. I must agree that empire is for now a lot funnier than heroes. The need of ideas for events, spells and items isn't here for nothing (though for items, it's pretty much solved, just not implanted yet).Assumption Larger maps are more fun because you have more space. Result: In making the map so large, and having so much blocking terrain, the map designer had to create a mechanic that allowed for quicker travel. The problem is that this is an attempt to circumvent a complete flaw. In addition, if there is no empire around the whole problem becomes compounded. Suggestion: If the map size is not alterable, or you don't want to adjust it then you can try a few things: Add teleporters, or a scroll that teleports to one of the towns, or even a hero ability. Map size is really only an issue for heroes, especially when they aren't allied or when they are playing solo. When was the last time you played through as a solo hero? Was it any fun? How long did it take you? @i figured that too, but since no-one ever complained I didn't rush to make the teleport. In my head the teleport would be between the two camps and would cost something like 5 tradepoints to use, does that seem fair ? (The cost is mainly here to avoid "forth and back" to escape kale or an enemy player.)Assumption: Length of game does not matter. Result: Many players are turned away because the game is simply too slow and drags on. Honestly the game ends up being boring after multiple plays. Play time directly affects your audience and how long they will continue to play the map, and is one of the most important aspects of design. Suggestion: Seriously ask these questions: Would the game be more fun if it took less time to play? Would more people play this game if it didn't take so long to play through? @the main trouble with the game-time is for empire, if they don't have enough time they won't develop very far and it's frustrating when you just don't have enough time to go further. GameTime might still be reduced when difficulty level will be adjusted. That said, playing in the future hardest modes will probably take more than 2 hours... if you survive obliviouslyAlternative ways to spice things up for heroes: Add mini-bosses that drop items. Change the number of monsters that spawn, or randomize it. Get more varied spawns. Make the spawns more difficult as the game progresses, or at least more quickly. @ : Mini-boss, yes they're coming. We will have underground units from the caves that come aside from kalendren army, meaning more units to fight. The only problem about "loot" from mini-boss is that I need to reward both Heroes and Empires for their victory against them, which complicate things... I am actually thinking of a "favor" thing... which I'll explain next.In a game that lasts this long I almost expect to have some form of reward system, a simple save code that gives me a minor bonus when I come back. I'm not sure how it would look, but I remember something similar for Night of the Living Dead, it wasn't completely game breaking, but it kept people coming back because they felt like they were advancing. Other than perfecting an Empire build strategy, this map has very little replayability. Every game is nearly identical. If that's what you want, then ok. @ : The renowned "save/load" system. I also thought about adding it, the main problem was to find what it would do... then how much players can gain, what bonus, coding them etc... It obliviously takes a hell lot time, which, being in my last year at high-school am desperately lacking. You've information about ranks, favor, etc... at end of the message
Just remembered one thing: Resource Packs: I love this new idea. THe only thing is that they don't scale into the late game for empires very well. 1500 gold and 4k lumber in the early game is awesome. But then when I hit future age I got one and it gave me about 4-5k gold. 1500 gold in the early game is a whole army, or 1-2 full upgrades. Whereas the 5k gold late game gave me maybe 2 ok units, or 1/3rd a super unit. Idea: Would there be a way to let the resource packs give you a tech upgrade? that might be cool.
@ : I though about giving tech upgrade, but it need more coding so it may come, but after I add new content. There are of course other reason why I don't rush adding that bonus possiblity.+Modes & Bonus : *Depending of general difficulty you receive a certain amount of "favor" that you gain if you complete some goals. *There would be about 10-12 modes that change the game, mainly increasing the difficulty. When you pick a mode you would have a multiplicator which increase the "favor" that you can gain for the game. *There would be ranks which you lost favor for, they provide bonus but also. ->If you play at low difficulty with a high rank you'll receive lot less favor. ->But if you play at high difficulty with a high rank, you'll receive more than if you play at a high dif with a low rank, I hope that would force some experienced players to create some average difficulty games allowing newbie to learn the map. ->The main rank effect is how you arrive in the map, if a newbie come into a very high dif game (ex : undefeatable), he'll receive very important bonus and bonus units to start with. But his favor bonus at the end of the game will be almost null. (so he has change to survive, and win, but he won't receive much favor from it.) ->It goes without saying that high ranked player don't receive bonus when they play high difficulty, but they wouldn't gain bonus if they play a low difficulty game (since they've already bonus from ranks & favor). Still here ? well the rest is here... +Bonus from Favors and ranks : *First off, there are 2 type of "favor", the one you save and the one you use. the one you save can't be decreased but when you gain a rank (and thus lose a part of your favor to gain it.) ->The one you use is the one you pay with for bonus in game. But it can't increase in a game. ->The one you save rarely change for the whole game, when you complete the needed objective you'll receive the "favor", you can only receive it one time, afterward you can do whatever you won't, you can't increase it again. That said, you can receive the bonus anytime, only it'll be strongly affected by how much you've completed your objective. There may be ONE exception to that option, but it's for later. And now that we're done with the 2 type of favor, the thing you await most : *The BONUS from favor and ranks : -Heroes : ->They can gain several bonus. Temporal increased exp rate, instant heal, free upgrade of equipment, bonus tradepoints or even special items. For those who wish teleport place, they can obtain "beacon" invulnerable units which they can teleport too. ->Unlock special quest or event, increasing the bonus from an event. Heroes can also receive units, thought with a limited lifetime of generally 900 seconds. (very useful at early game, obliviously) ->And the most important, ranks unlock higher level of spells and items for heroes. Favor can be used to increase that cap for the game, regardless of rank but then if you have a good rank you don't need to spend favor to get high levels spells or items. ->"Artefact" items, you can only obtain them if you fulfill some condition, have a rank high enough AND favor to obtain the item. That said, Artefact are almighty items that can either be hold or spend to gain weaker bonus but that don't cost a inventory slot. ->still to be know, some bonus may reduce your favor multiplicator. Edit : here is the next. -Empire : ->They receive various bonus, ranging from resource to units and research. Favor can be used to provide 'miracle' or to transform a unit into a 'Hero', which is a unit but has powerful bonus plus an aura. ->They can use it to build new buildings (being worked on), those are 'Wonders', gigantic buildings that can only be built on certain spots and need resource and some level of research to be build. Wonders can't be destroyed but can be taken over. Various things happens depending of the owner (Heroes or... Kalendren). ->The possiblity to create some events, like maxing citizens, increasing the attraction or other things... ->Also ranks and favor are needed for some units, thus will high-end units appear, that have less power against heroes but very efficient against units, building and such.
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Post by Sleaker on Feb 23, 2010 2:29:20 GMT -5
Oh I forgot to mention that with the new options in the Opening game sequence, it becomes nearly impossible to coordinate with your teammates. Especially since all the games I have been playing have been with bots hosting the map so most people don't talk till we get into the game.
The options need to be removed from a menu driven system that pops up on game start, and returned to simple chat commands. The problem with leaving them in a menu system far outweighs the cool benefit factor. The simple fact is that no one can chat until they've made all their selections, and this does cause a lot of frustration. Yes menu's are cool. Not being able to talk about choices == very frustrating and not fun gameplay. Especially when you can only repick for a very limited amount of time.
Also the addition of a host override menu makes things additionally confusing. (Serious lack of descriptions on what the difficulties do)
Thanks for the response arn!
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Post by stephanreiken on Feb 23, 2010 3:00:21 GMT -5
A couple things I noticed..
Early game heroes have a very hard time soloing unless they are Necromancer or Generals (or both). Trying to be a builder is like serial suicide, or staying level 1 for the game helping the generals. If you manage to level enough in time, you can beat the flow. But that takes teamwork.
in 1.4a, Small Houses don't have mana. meaning you don't have citizens and you don't make any money at all. Only way out is to age up, and only way to get gold is from a friend.
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Post by Sleaker on Feb 23, 2010 5:22:59 GMT -5
@stephen: The map no longer uses mana to track citizens. When you build a house you should have citizens show up in the leaderboard stats. Did you doublecheck that?
@arn: I've always liked the idea of control points, or the more recently used placing farms on control areas to gain income from another map similar to HaE.
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Post by Royce13 on Feb 23, 2010 18:56:54 GMT -5
Answer to long games? Fast mode host picks (red) Just like battlecraft kkthxbai im going to fall of the world again see you next year "Early game heroes have a very hard time soloing unless they are Necromancer or Generals (or both). Trying to be a builder is like serial suicide, or staying level 1 for the game helping the generals. If you manage to level enough in time, you can beat the flow. But that takes teamwork."I have not played the new version of HaE sad as it is but unless he changed it alot... Ranger and Trader are THE best heroes when you are freelancer or builder
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