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Post by TLI-Inferno on Sept 7, 2009 9:45:08 GMT -5
im not saying you should not make your changes, stephanreiken, im saying you should just stop complaining about dethlord's map so much when your own changes are no better. you can do whatever you want to your map as long as you have final's permission, but dont talk stuff when you can do no better...
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dethlord
Mercenary
Dark Mapper
Posts: 36
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Post by dethlord on Sept 7, 2009 12:59:03 GMT -5
mmm so much controversy ^_^ feel the love..... update coming in about a week so be ready for new content
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Post by tealninja on Sept 7, 2009 18:53:47 GMT -5
im not saying you should not make your changes, stephanreiken, im saying you should just stop complaining about dethlord's map so much when your own changes are no better. you can do whatever you want to your map as long as you have final's permission, but dont talk stuff when you can do no better... I could make a long winded post, but seeing as you're apparently expecting me to troll dethlord constantly, I'll just feed the flames. Stephanreiken's version is inherently better because it was not based on a broken version, apparently did not screw up the delicate balance between heroes and empires, and wasn't made by dethlord. If you want the actual response, stop treating my posts as trolls, and stop assuming that I can detect sarcasm over the internet. You're not using body language, extensive comments OR differing tones of voice, so it is literally impossible to be sure that you're being sarcastic.
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dethlord
Mercenary
Dark Mapper
Posts: 36
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Post by dethlord on Sept 8, 2009 14:02:38 GMT -5
tealninja... i just don't want to hear anymore from you, nor will i accept input from any of your comments. Stop telling me to delete it, if i haven't done that yet what makes you think i'm going to later. Trolling, as far as i know, is an act that is looked down upon and maybe your legitimate claims may be right but the way your pulling yourself around turns people off and makes them not want to read or even comment about your posts. You said what you needed to say all your doing is repeating the same bs suggestions. Do not post here again unless it is in a manner of respect, even if you do not respect me. I only post here becaues i would like input from the original creators. Telling me things like delete the map only make me want to break off of this site completely and make my map myself without input from people like you. I could have not decided to include this site, but i decided that input from here was important. Why i decided this i do not know, the only people who don't seem to flame me are the original creators! If the original creator is for me creating this do not tell me to stop or delete it. As royce said if you do not like it choose not to play it and do not look at this thread anymore!
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Post by TLI-Inferno on Sept 8, 2009 14:04:43 GMT -5
Stephanreiken's version is inherently better because it was not based on a broken version, apparently did not screw up the delicate balance between heroes and empires, and wasn't made by dethlord. If you want the actual response, stop treating my posts as trolls, and stop assuming that I can detect sarcasm over the internet. You're not using body language, extensive comments OR differing tones of voice, so it is literally impossible to be sure that you're being sarcastic. if a person says speaks seriously about a left hand or right hand dominance you should know they are either retarded or joking. and you ARE trolling. yes, dethlord's map is not good IMO, and i agree with you. just about everyone would agree with you. but what you are doing is trolling him. if you are not posting with the intention of helping anyone, then dont' post. posting things like "this maps sucks" or "stop making this map" does not help. if you posted that only one time to tell him that you didn't like his map, which is perfectly fine (although still slightly rude). posting that over and over again does nothing but insult him. also, most of the problems with the version dethlord edited off of have been fixed. and stephanreiken's version has just as many imbalances as dethlord's from what ive read from stephanreiken's post about his changes.
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Post by TLI-Inferno on Sept 8, 2009 14:07:57 GMT -5
one thing i also forgot to mention... rawr seems to be equally as important has the original hero and empires...
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Post by darkhunter4 on Sept 8, 2009 20:48:03 GMT -5
Compliments of me! Lol.
As far as I know it, trolling is; Useless replies that do not give answers to asked questions. Pestering -- aka continuously repeating something said in attempt to make the creator follow your ideals of the map (or whatever is in discussion, not to be confused with constructive criticism), or to stop it in general. Or feeding the fire and keeping the flame war going on for your own amusment.
And if his map does suck? Who cares? As Royce and TLI-Inferno have stated (or restated) don't play it, I dislike dota, but I don't go to their forums and troll about it, I simply don't play it. As TLI-Inferno just said, telling him it isn't so great might be kind of rude, but tell him you might have a few suggestions to improve it if he would like to hear them, if not then let him stew in his own ideals, plain and simple. I've had many shitty map ideals go to friends and they have told me it wasn't such a good one so either I asked for their thoughts to make it better or I just left it at that. He doesn't have to do either, he can do what he wants, it is his map, so let him do it the way he wants to.
I would appreciate and respect your decision if all of you stopped the silly little bickering.
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Post by stephanreiken on Sept 8, 2009 21:20:10 GMT -5
also, most of the problems with the version dethlord edited off of have been fixed. and stephanreiken's version has just as many imbalances as dethlord's from what ive read from stephanreiken's post about his changes. In the small farms map there were only 3 problems to begin with. The first was the small, cheap farms. The second was the cheap peasents. The third was the wood research glitch. Dethlord fixed number 3, numbers 1 and 2 are still present. Dethlord hasn't even fixed half of the problems present, and having even one of them is game breaking. Mine inherently has none of these problems, but I'm aware of the imbalance adding new powers brings so naturally I'll be changing more than just the heroes. The empires and enemies will change as appropriate, it just takes testing to make sure I haven't lost balance.
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Post by TLI-Inferno on Sept 9, 2009 5:10:41 GMT -5
the wood research has been fixed. farms have been decreased in efficiency to match their size and price, they are just small so you can shape them in tight spots. you don't even read the changlog before you post, do you, let alone reading posts before it as it has been posted already.
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Post by stephanreiken on Sept 10, 2009 5:06:45 GMT -5
ACTUALLY playing the game is better information than looking at changelogs with indistinct meanings.
Here is a real comparison of 7.3 vs Adv 4.0 for farms, and peasents
7.3 Farm 1000 food 100 gold 2000 wood 4x4 size 16 tiles
Peasant 40 gold 120 wood
Adv 4.0 Farm 1000 food (NO difference, changelog or otherwise) 120 gold 1600 wood 1x1 size 1 tile
Peasent 10 gold 40 wood
Adv in comparison to good HAE Farm 100% food 120% gold 80% wood 6.25% Size
Peasant 25% gold 33% wood +70% Woodmaking capability
Now, the additional gold the farm costs does not offset 400 wood cost, but I'll get to that later. Let me first point out the one that isn't talked about much and is probably 60~80% of the reason the game time is reduced by 75% (therefore increasing the development of empires by 75%)
Peasants. Those peasants have a combined gold/wood reduction of 29% This means you can get 3x as many peasants out faster. Spending wood = gaining Gold Income, so with 3x the wood working power early on will give a similar 3x boost to your gold production. So with both at x3 production in comparison to the original HAE, your empire has the ability to tech up and age up at 3x the rate. The more you take advantage of the peasant bonus, the faster you'll go.
Now, there is a certain limit to the peasant bonus, as sooner or later it'll match the point that you would get to normally although much faster. This is where the small farm issue comes into play. The extra 20 gold cost is in no way worth 400 wood reduced cost. At least when I play real HAE, I always run out of wood before gold. Running out of gold first means you are managing your empire poorly by setting taxes/rations all wrong or too much of a working force or too much non-grain/wood research. Now, the actual small issue.
Next comes the space issue, or rather lack thereof. There is a certain cost the maintaining a defense. Most bases have at least 2 fronts, though some can manage to turn it into 1 front with a mobile unit defense. In the original HAE, every time you ran out of space in your current base you have two options. 1) expand your border for the extra building space. 2) Focus on researching to cover for your lack of building space. Both of these have a cost to them, the first is generally better than the second, but if you have a huge empire with plenty of farms already research may sate your people's hunger. Either way, you'll probably expand your empire in the end because you need a power outpost, and you don't want those explody power plants next to your delicate citizens. Explosions can cripple you, and non=explody power just doesn't meet the power budget of Tesla Coils.
Building an outpost or expanding your borders costs gold in and of itself. the farther you expand, the more fronts your empire is vulernable and therefore the more locations you have to defend (the top left base can expand fairly far to the right before having additional fronts, and used to be one of my favorite choices. You also don't need to make outpost towns with their own set of huts, as you'll never run out of room to build a decent sized empire with farms. Before if you were forced into a poor location for empiring, you could very well be forced into making multiple basing locations due to the difficulty of covering all of your huts with all of the growth+ if its oddly shaped. So in conclusion, cheap peasents and small, cheaper farms boosts the development of the empire by 300%. This huge boost cuts a game that is normally 4 hours into a game that is 1 hour.
If that doesn't convince you, I don't know what will.
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dethlord
Mercenary
Dark Mapper
Posts: 36
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Post by dethlord on Sept 10, 2009 10:36:08 GMT -5
make sure you have the right version. the farm was reduced in efficiency by about 30%
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Post by stephanreiken on Sept 11, 2009 10:31:27 GMT -5
Do you not trust what I just said? Yes, its 4.0. Tested on multiple modes all with non resource collector profiles. Every farm produces 1000 food per tick.
Reducing the farm efficiency would slow down expansion in that you'll have a tougher time making huts to get gold when your people starve because the farms you can afford to make aren't enough.
But it takes almost no effort to take an instant 30-45 peasants to produce so much wood that you have little difficulty in creating your empire and winning in an hour. Do you not see that your games only last 1 hour when a competent empire plays?
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dethlord
Mercenary
Dark Mapper
Posts: 36
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Post by dethlord on Sept 11, 2009 14:41:46 GMT -5
steph, if you say it only takes 1 hour i'd like to see the replay where you beat god's play solo, in 1 hour, or god's play full house of pro's in 1 hour. If not, do not post that it's to easy or short. I don't care if you could 1 hour the game on easy or very strong. Do not just say "oh it's a given" or something of the sort i want EVIDENCE that says you can do what you say.
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Post by FinalLegacy on Sept 11, 2009 18:32:37 GMT -5
well honestly, ive only beaten kalenden like... twice on gods play. last one was with 5 people (of which 2 left early in-game). me as hero and 2 empires. its a real hard battle on v7.3, even for me
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Post by TLI-Inferno on Sept 11, 2009 19:16:35 GMT -5
yeah and dethlord, even on very strong (what i usually play) it should not take as low amount of time as an hour, even with a few people. it should be a 2 hour game AT LEAST. let alone god's play solo.
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