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Post by TLI-Inferno on Aug 26, 2009 21:45:17 GMT -5
lol ya its rly fun but annoying to download lets not leak out why until hes done, we need a section for clan members only for things like this.
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Post by stephanreiken on Aug 31, 2009 10:48:22 GMT -5
This is how you move topics, by cutting it off cold turkey and posting here as if your conversation never ended, not by continuing to post after TLI said to move it to here.
Here's my tally of your posts as you did with teal, more detailed because you have more posts.
Complaints of criticism - 18
'Update' or otherwise neutral - 4
Accepting of suggestion/criticism - 3
a certain general complaint of not being asked to help in clan projects was also added to complaints.
Not to mention people pay more attention to the negative than the postive, and with so much negative on your scale, the positive is very overshadowed.
You've done things that make no sense, you've suggested removing Builder from Trader, wtf is up with that as Traders are weak without it, assuming you make it impossible for the builder to access another person's forge or building skill. Sweatshop, bad to begin with but implemented. It makes Trader's worse, which already have a tough time competing with compentant Rangers. and it doesn't fix the problems you've created by using a bad, hacked version. Most of what Teal has said has been agreed to by several other people though not everything. You still haven't fixed the fact that you are using a hacked version, you only took a step towards that goal. You don't seem to understand that HAE is supposed to take 3-4 hours and is desigend around this fact. Sooner or later your progression gets beyond the mob progression, but thats so much sooner that 1/4 of the game play is reduced because of it. Thats an entire 2-3 hours of mobs that haven't stopped upgrading yet, Have you ever played that out to the end? It becomes prohibitive, very difficult to farm the common mobs for exp because they are so damn powerful. The 'Minion's of Kalenden' Which I've only seen after an obelisk was successful at some point in the game. At the point in the game where quest mobs are all Kalenden's Royal Guards which he spawns during his fight. You haven't fixed Int Heroes being weak end game, and pointless tanks since Kalenden targets multiple targets. His fight is dull, either you win or you don't, he doesn't have any special abilities to counter or watch out for and some randomness so winning is partly luck. You haven't implemented the balance changes of heroes that was made in 7.3, namely making Rangers worse, and Warriors stronger (I don't know what changes if any were made to other heroes, but Warriors were defiantly buffed.)
Yes, you should probably delete your current map and start over with a fresh, unaltered copy of the unprotected HAE 85.6. Start working on fixing its bugs, make the game infallible Then experiement with small balance changes, make the heroes and empires stronger while making the mobs upgrade faster to create a faster pace. Do something other than how you've currently proceded to do. Your history of actions betrays your most recent post, and a certain Moderator in Hive is much familiar with our goings, probably why he's against your map being approved there.
Just because Teal says you are completely wrong, doesn't make him completely wrong. Nor is he far off the mark. ANYTHING that ruins the balance of the game is not worth it, unless balance is restored later. Thats why we are still here, asking you to restore the balance your map never had since you first touched it (its small farms, that's a hacked version, or more accurately a very cheap unfair version that buffs empires exclusively that is frowned upon by any serious HAE players.) You've made some useful changes, they would help out an old map thats still living because of its legend. But none of that matters at all when you've ruined its balance. HAE isn't a complicated game, its not like WoW where subtle things cause balance issues. It takes bold changes to imbalance, and we can't understand why you don't see that.
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Post by Royce13 on Aug 31, 2009 20:15:01 GMT -5
Just because Teal says you are completely wrong, doesn't make him completely wrong. Just bcuz you say he is completely or close to being 100% doesn't make him completely wrong... I would like you guys to quit bitching if you dont like the version dont PLAY IT! done and done. How about you use your leet uber map making skills because it seems you know the best way to make the map and know what is just horrible. |
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dethlord
Mercenary
Dark Mapper
Posts: 36
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Post by dethlord on Aug 31, 2009 21:44:31 GMT -5
thanks royce ;D
BTW i did not say i was going to make it so trader's couldn't build. I don't know if you just stopped reading but what i said was, or at least meant to say, was that they wouldn't be able to build sweatshops. Sweatshops aren't unbalanced, reason being that they are near completely obsolete in insane and above as the range of the workshop is reduced with higher difficulty. Something like 50-80 easy and 20-40 gods play every 300 seconds on an ACTIVE ability that you have to remember to use. Traders get like 10 tp a minute. Not to mention to even construct a sweatshop you need a blacksmith and a hideout. It doesn't make a profit until 10 min after you built it in harder difficulties. Not only that, but the workshop isn't going to be just meant for the trade points. Later i will add more for them, as well as buff the other classes and make empires worse. All this arguing only delays my updates further.
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Post by stephanreiken on Sept 2, 2009 10:29:16 GMT -5
Just because Teal says you are completely wrong, doesn't make him completely wrong. Just bcuz you say he is completely or close to being 100% doesn't make him completely wrong... I would like you guys to quit bitching if you dont like the version dont PLAY IT! done and done. How about you use your leet uber map making skills because it seems you know the best way to make the map and know what is just horrible. You clearly have no idea WHY I post like this. We want to see a good version of this map, therefore list all the problems that he's created and the improvements that need to be done, and improvements that could be done. Now you are trolling me, for all you've said to me is stfu when all of the points I bring up are valid, instead of trying to explain why I'm wrong and these shouldn't be implemented. And yea, while I've made my own changes on my own unprotected HAE, I can't host due to Verizon. However, instead of addressing what I've spoken of, dethlord has avoided every issue but one very small issue. Sweatshops shouldn't exist to begin with. In 'easy' its incredibly overpowered, and in higher difficulties its nearly useless. You need to stop nerfing hero classes that don't need it and nerf the one that badly needs it while buffing ALL of the Int heroes. Tell me, what other ability does the Trader have that makes it powerful? None, thats what. Rangers have 3 way shot crit and poison arrows. While no hero class is a better builder, all other physical hero classes are much more powerful on an equal basis. A good player can harvest resources a lot faster than a trader gains TP, so the trader can't just ignore harvesting resources or it will lose the item race. In the meantime, Empires need to be nerfed back to the way they are supposed to be, bringing back the 3-4 hour long, difficult game instead of a quick 1 hour easy match. You can't do these things later, you have to do them now, to restore the balance before you come to the point that you would alienate your fanbase should you put things back the way they used to be. |
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Post by Royce13 on Sept 2, 2009 15:30:30 GMT -5
Now you are trolling me, for all you've said to me is stfu when all of the points I bring up are valid, instead of trying to explain why I'm wrong and these shouldn't be implemented. In the meantime, Empires need to be nerfed back to the way they are supposed to be, bringing back the 3-4 hour long, difficult game instead of a quick 1 hour easy match. You can't do these things later, you have to do them now, to restore the balance before you come to the point that you would alienate your fanbase should you put things back the way they used to be. If I'm trolling you. Your trolling him if you have a problem with me trolling you, HE GOTS to be pissed off about you trolling him. The points that I also brought up are valid. You said that you did not like the map he created and he should just throw it out the window. I think you should quiet crying because he made a easier map to play. Some people dont want to spend 3-4 hours playing one game. It gets BORING! The whole point of the new version is so it DOESNT become 3-4 hours long game. What you want him to do is change everything back to the way it was. If you just want it to be like the old version THEN JUST PLAY THE OLD VERSION LIKE I SAID. It like you just throw what I just said out the window and take a shit on it. You can't do these things later, you have to do them now, to restore the balance before you come to the point that you would alienate your fanbase should you put things back the way they used to be. You also want to rush things like crazy thats only going to make the game even more unstable. If you make a mistake you dont want to add 4 more trying to fix the old one. Rushing into thing wont fix anything what so ever. Thats why you have alpha testing and beta testing for almost all the games in the world. Sweatshops are just one way of making the game go faster if they give 10 tradepoint every 300 seconds or so thats not overpowered. You said other heroes are a good player can harvest items faster then the trader gets TPs that true but guess what!!! If a good player uses the trader he can harvest items fast AND get TP over time which would make him better then the other good play just harvesting the items ZOMG NO WAY RIGHT!?!?!  |
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Post by stephanreiken on Sept 3, 2009 3:31:52 GMT -5
You said other heroes are a good player can harvest items faster then the trader gets TPs that true but guess what!!! If a good player uses the trader he can harvest items fast AND get TP over time which would make him better then the other good play just harvesting the items ZOMG NO WAY RIGHT!?!?! Please read my post before replying, I clearly stated that Traders really HAVE to do that, regardless of their inborn TP ability, thus showing that Trader's TP ability is not as great as its made out to be. Especially since its already 1/5 as useful. A game that lasts 1/3-1/4 as long severely hurts the TP gain ability which takes time to get its effect. (If you understand how the TP ability works, you should be able to reason out why I said 1/5 but I'll say it anyway. TP gained grows over time up to level 100. So its nerfed exponentially when you reduce time spent.) The game is already ridiculously easy to play, the best parts are early when the empires need defending or you are an empire trying to defend. The game was never really all that hard to play until you start playing insane+. That point is where it becomes difficult and teaming is necessary to victory. This is why in my personal version I'm buffing Kalenden, he just isn't that hard to fight. He doesn't have any omghax instant kills like a final boss should. I also want to add a couple things to the heroes. a hero specific bonus to each hero based on the class they are. A building only that hero can build as a builder. Like a Frost Tower for Wizard, or a healing pool for a Cleric. And Mercs too, a fragile Warlock that raises miniskeletons from dead bodies for the Necromancer. A Pack Mule for the Trader. Not sure what I would do for Freelancer, perhaps a minor buff Aura for each. I'm also going to let empires live as long as they have at least one peasant alive, or buff the capital building, give them buildings/units exclusive to the profiles Also speculating on a mode where some players are on Kalenden's side. eventually, in a handful or so of months, I'll be back in the states and hopefully have a better ISP where I can host my own games online. Oh, and restoring balance to the empires takes 3 changes. 1) Correct Worker cost. 2) Correct Farm Cost. 3) Correct Farm Size. Making 3 such simple changes and testing them once to ensure there weren't any unintended changes would take at the most 30 minutes if you don't have a very fast PC. |
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Post by Royce13 on Sept 3, 2009 15:21:35 GMT -5
I dont see how correct worker cost is going to be a major game breaker. It only deals with the starting ages.
I truly dont see why you want the farm size to change nor the cost. If you dont like them being small and the cost of them low. Dont play the version! There are other version that have big farms that cost alot. I dont know why you keep telling him HE HAS to change the version over and over.
Me personaly I would like them to be 2x2 and cost a little bit more.
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Asakari
Skirmisher
Schwartzvald...
Posts: 50
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Post by Asakari on Sept 5, 2009 0:02:50 GMT -5
I think it's essential that the farms stay THE SAME SIZE as the original, big, bulky, and expensive. If you want to build a base in a small section of the map and find that farms are too big for it, that's what EXPANDING YOUR EMPIRE is for, it's what empires do!
Farm size is just that added reason why you need to build away from your original base, build an outlet power source, an entire farming colony, ect. That or spread imperialism to the weaker colonies, but still, small farms are just a way to make people stay in their small little corner of the map to do absolutely nothing.
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Post by tealninja on Sept 5, 2009 20:05:53 GMT -5
I dont see how correct worker cost is going to be a major game breaker. It only deals with the starting ages. I truly dont see why you want the farm size to change nor the cost. If you dont like them being small and the cost of them low. Dont play the version! There are other version that have big farms that cost alot. I dont know why you keep telling him HE HAS to change the version over and over. Me personaly I would like them to be 2x2 and cost a little bit more. First of all, the most important time for getting workers is at the very beginning. You can tech your age up, or you can get a lot of workers working on lumber income. That is a very conscious decision one has to make. With cheap peasants, you can do both without losing any significant time with the other. About complaining about the version: This version is splitting the community away from the official series, which is better. There are people hosting the Advanced version that just don't know any better. They see the Advanced version as the most recent version, and that's what they download; what they don't realize is that the Advanced version is actually outdated and broken. They also don't realize that the map modifier for Advanced is actually supporting the broken "features." This is something to complain about, as I would much rather have more skilled people, rather than a more popular map filled completely with people I could beat left handed. |
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Post by TLI-Inferno on Sept 6, 2009 15:20:31 GMT -5
i have many things to say in response to posts above.
stephanreiken, i do not believe i like your changes any more than i like dethlord's, so i would stop talking if i were you.
tealninja, I AM LEFT HANDED TY I COULD BEAT THEM LEFT-HANDED TOO and wait a second...its a computer what dif do it make what hands used... and yeah this new map does split the community. if this "advanced" version is improved i will have no problem with people playing it because of its being better in some ways.
unfortunately the map is not better in any ways that i can find. what i have to say is: sweatshops need an across-the-board rate. otherwise, on easy they are better than all other heroes, and on insane they suck ass compared to all other heroes...
i would advise giving kalenden mana sheild for increases health, and, instead of multi shot, he should have area of effect. that will allow tankers to do their job still, except they will all be hurt at once instead of one at a time so once the tank dies, theres no "okay, next guy, your turn to tank". if you do these two things, the difficulty to kill kalenden should be balanced, making heroes good again. with multi-shot he kills all heroes at same time, but empires have MANY units so they have an advantage over kalenden that heroes do not. giving aoe instead of multi-shot would make him kill more units, or hit 2/3 heroes at once. that way he would hit lets say like 1/2 or 1/3 of the heroes at once, depending on how close together they are and how many there are, or a large amount of an empire's army, rather than barely any of an empires army at all, but killing just about all of the heroes at once.
if you want to make the game faster, dont make it easier...
you could double the exp rate, trade points paying and exp paying rate, selling for items (make them to price), and cut gold costs in half, but make kalenden's minions get stronger at double the rate. this would make the game much faster without making it easier. note that this is just an idea, but it would be better than what you have done to the game, dethlord.
and tealninja, sure most of us dont like his map, but you need to give him ways to fix the the problems you see when you see them rather than trolling about it over and over again... yes, a LOT of negative comments are due to him, but ways to improve the map should go with those comments, otherwise you are getting nothing done by telling him you think his map sucks... that wont make anything any better.
and royce, if we want a map to be better we have all rights to say so... why should we just go play the other version when we can try to make this one even better than the original (which i doubt will happen, but it would be good if it did)
dont tell people to shut up for giving ideas about how a map could be fixed, tell them to shut up if all they do is post negative comments WITHOUT explanations.
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Post by tealninja on Sept 6, 2009 19:20:15 GMT -5
i have many things to say in response to posts above. stephanreiken, i do not believe i like your changes any more than i like dethlord's, so i would stop talking if i were you. tealninja, I AM LEFT HANDED TY I COULD BEAT THEM LEFT-HANDED TOO and wait a second...its a computer what dif do it make what hands used... and yeah this new map does split the community. if this "advanced" version is improved i will have no problem with people playing it because of its being better in some ways. unfortunately the map is not better in any ways that i can find. what i have to say is: sweatshops need an across-the-board rate. otherwise, on easy they are better than all other heroes, and on insane they suck ass compared to all other heroes... i would advise giving kalenden mana sheild for increases health, and, instead of multi shot, he should have area of effect. that will allow tankers to do their job still, except they will all be hurt at once instead of one at a time so once the tank dies, theres no "okay, next guy, your turn to tank". if you do these two things, the difficulty to kill kalenden should be balanced, making heroes good again. with multi-shot he kills all heroes at same time, but empires have MANY units so they have an advantage over kalenden that heroes do not. giving aoe instead of multi-shot would make him kill more units, or hit 2/3 heroes at once. that way he would hit lets say like 1/2 or 1/3 of the heroes at once, depending on how close together they are and how many there are, or a large amount of an empire's army, rather than barely any of an empires army at all, but killing just about all of the heroes at once. if you want to make the game faster, dont make it easier... you could double the exp rate, trade points paying and exp paying rate, selling for items (make them to price), and cut gold costs in half, but make kalenden's minions get stronger at double the rate. this would make the game much faster without making it easier. note that this is just an idea, but it would be better than what you have done to the game, dethlord. and tealninja, sure most of us dont like his map, but you need to give him ways to fix the the problems you see when you see them rather than trolling about it over and over again... yes, a LOT of negative comments are due to him, but ways to improve the map should go with those comments, otherwise you are getting nothing done by telling him you think his map sucks... that wont make anything any better. and royce, if we want a map to be better we have all rights to say so... why should we just go play the other version when we can try to make this one even better than the original (which i doubt will happen, but it would be good if it did) dont tell people to shut up for giving ideas about how a map could be fixed, tell them to shut up if all they do is post negative comments WITHOUT explanations. First of all, my dominant hand is my right hand, and seeing as that was a subjective statement, it should not be treated objectively (which is what you did.) My computer is set up 100% for right-hand dominant; trying to play left handed by reaching across my keyboard to control my mouse is ineffective. My efficiency playing with only my left hand is about 10% of what it is with both hands; playing with only my right hand is about 40%. Second of all, I don't want him to improve his version of the map. I want him to stop making it. He started in the completely wrong direction and continues to take it in the wrong direction. He's already missed one of the most important things about modifying or programming something; knowing when to go back and start again. He could have alleviated much of my complaints about the total imbalance by using 7.3 as his base. Instead, he ignored it entirely, which demonstrates to me that he's pretty much doing it for his own benefit, not for anyone else. Which is fine when he's making his own map, but not fine when he's altering someone else's creation, especially when that creation already has a dedicated fanbase. |
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Post by TLI-Inferno on Sept 6, 2009 22:07:20 GMT -5
the left hand and right hand thing was a joke, i guess you fail to recognize whether or not a person is serious.
yes, he used a bad version, but, in case you have not noticed, he fixed MOST of the problems put into the version he edited from, including an exploited bug. (the solution he used was a very bad solution though, because it effects players that could possibly not even be abusing the bug. he should not have used the simple way to fix the problem, he should have used the effective way to effect only a player abusing the bug. however he did not do so. (i used a pm). im not going to say the solution, as it would reveal the bug.
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Post by stephanreiken on Sept 7, 2009 0:15:35 GMT -5
So treating me the same as Teal does to dethlord gives you some ground to stand for dethlord? You liked my ideas previously, but when I continue on, you seem to take it worse than breaking the game's balance.
Naturally I'll be making the mobs stronger and more interesting in the later game to make up for the power boost given.
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Post by Royce13 on Sept 7, 2009 8:11:47 GMT -5
and royce, if we want a map to be better we have all rights to say so... why should we just go play the other version when we can try to make this one even better than the original I have no problem with they want a better map to play but all they have been doing is says NO we dont want you to change any just change everything back to the way it was. None of them have said i think farms would be balanced if they were 3x4 and cost x amount of wood or x amount of gold. Once again all they said is make it to the normal size. Bascily they dont know how to compromise. Once again all they have said is no your work is crap and we arnt going to help you fix it. I am mostly talking to teal about just play the old version Second of all, I don't want him to improve his version of the map. I want him to stop making it. I was saying if he did not like his version just play the old one. Others do like some of the changes and want him to balance and make the version better then the original one. |
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